直说 | 德国学者谈全过程人民民主

Editor's note: The concept of "the whole-process people's democracy" was first put forward about two years ago, during Xi's visit to a civic center in Shanghai. Since then, the Western media have been attacking it for being hollow and misleading. Helga Zepp-LaRouche, founder and president of the Schiller Institute, shares her thoughts on China's whole-process people's democracy. The opinions expressed in the video are her own and not necessarily the views of CGTN.

CGTN: Why does the Western media keep attacking the "whole-process people's democracy"? 

为什么西方媒体一直抨击“全过程人民民主”?

Zepp-LaRouche: My understanding of this "whole-process people's democracy" is that it is an inner party democratic process whereby you identify on the basis of meritocracy, you know, the most qualified people for the job and the [best] servant to the common good. And I think there is an empirical proof that this method is truthful, because China was able to lift 850 million people out of extreme poverty. That is the greatest contribution to history I know of. But to lift so many people out of poverty and also to offer that to developing countries are exactly what is the crime in the view of the Western people who attacked China on this point, because China has overcome extreme poverty in its own country, and it is now helping developing countries to do likewise. This is exactly the same mindset which was the mindset since the time of the British East India Company which, as you know, was behind the Opium Wars against China.

黑尔佳·策普 - 拉鲁什：在我看来，“全过程人民民主”是一种党内民主流程，基础是精英政治，也就是发现最称职的人，找到最能服务大众的公职人员。我认为实践经验证明这种方法是有效的，因为中国成功地使8.5亿人摆脱了极端贫困。这是我所了解的人类扶贫历史上最伟大的成就。但让这么多人摆脱贫困，并且向其他发展中国家传播经验，这在某些西方人看来是罪过，他们借此攻击中国，因为中国解决了国内的极端贫困问题，现在还在帮助其他发展中国家脱贫。这种心态自英国东印度公司时期就毫无改变，而东印度公司正是对中国发起鸦片战争的幕后黑手。

It is not because of what they say. It is because the Chinese model has upset the whole world order. You have offered for the first time to the developing countries the possibility to overcome poverty and underdevelopment, and they wanted to keep the colonial order. I think this is really the bottom line of the accusations against China. I've been in China many times, and my impression was always that the spirit of the people is extremely positive [and] optimistic [about] the future. Therefore, the CPC must be doing something very right. If you ask people in the West, most people are pessimistic about the future. So I think that expresses, in my view, more truthfulness than any of the propagandistic lines in the mainstream media.

他们嘴上说的并不是真正原因，真正原因是中国模式挑战了现有世界秩序。有史以来第一次，你们为发展中国家带来了摆脱贫困和落后的可能，但他们却想要维持住殖民时期的秩序。我认为这才是抨击中国的根本所在。我多次到访中国，我对中国的印象一直是中国人对未来始终保持着极为乐观和积极的心态。由此可见，中国共产党的实践一定是非常正确的。如果你问西方人，大部分对未来都很悲观。我觉得这比主流媒体的任何宣传都要真实。

CGTN: How do you see Chinese democracy and Western democracy?

您怎么看中国民主和西方的民主？

Zepp-LaRouche: Democracy sounds very nice, but in many cases, it is unable. You'd better look what is the content of the bottle on which the label is pasted, because, you know, nowadays the different parties are mostly lobbying for different interests. I would like to read you another quote from George Washington's "Farewell Address" as president of the United States in 1796, where he warned of the evil spirit of party in general. 

黑尔佳·策普 - 拉鲁什：民主这个词非常好听。但在许多情况下，民主意味着无能。标签并不是最重要的，内容才是。现在的各种政党基本就是为不同利益服务的游说团体。我想再读一段美国前总统乔治·华盛顿在1796年的《告别演说》中的话，他借此指出了政党的邪恶本质。

He said, "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." I think that is what we are seeing right now in the West. In many countries, [we] have democracy, but [we] have [the] form of despotism like in the United States. The polarization between the Republicans and the Democrats has torn the country completely apart. In Germany where you have now the effort to form a new coalition, you know, the voters will not get [the] government [do] what he or she voted for, because they form coalitions as they want.

他说：“一派轮流对另一派进行的统治，会因政党间不和而自然产生的复仇心成为苛政。这种复仇心在不同年代和不同国家中曾犯下最可怕的罪行。因此，这种轮流统治本身就是可怕的专制，并终将导致更加正式的和永久的专制。”我认为这正是目前西方的情况。不少国家有民主制度，但其实是美国式的专制制度。共和党和民主党之间的政治两极化使美国彻底分裂。德国目前正在组建新的联合政府，因此政党并不会按照选民的意愿行事，因为他们可以随意组建联盟。

There were periods, however, [when] the western democracy did function. This was the case [at] the beginning of the American Revolution, and it was the case which the Fifth Republic of Charles de Gaulle. But unfortunately, we, in the West, have moved very far away from these more noble conceptions, so we are more in the system of despotism which George Washington warned about.

但西方民主也也曾在一些时期中发挥过作用，比如美国独立战争时期，比如查尔斯·戴高乐的第五共和国时期。但遗憾的是，西方世界已经和这种崇高的民主理念相去甚远，我们的民主更像是乔治·华盛顿曾经警告要远离的专制体系。

CGTN: Can China and the West maintain good and stable relations? 

中国和西方有没有可能保持良好稳定的关系？

Zepp-LaRouche: I think that there are indeed different models of democracy, according to specific tradition and culture. It is very possible for these different systems to cooperate. However, this will only function, if they are united by the higher one [that] must be in the interest of all of mankind. I think the model closest to that is what President Xi Jinping has proposed – a community with a shared future, because that includes this idea of humanity as a whole. There is a way in the West, an idea which is very similar, or actually identical, and that is the philosophical idea of a thinker from the 15th century, Nicholas of Cusa, the coincidence of opposites which is the idea that since human beings are the only species capable of creative reason, we always can think the higher one in light of unity, where all the differences disappear. So I think we need to enter a dialogue – why this concept of the coincidence of opposites and President Xi Jinping's idea of [a community with a shared future] are one and the same idea. And once we agree on that, I think cooperation will be very easy.

我认为的确存在不同的民主模式，这取决于传统和文化。不同的体系之间很有可能进行合作，但只有在各方团结一致追求崇高目标的情况下才能实现，这个目标就是造福全人类。我认为最接近于这个理想的模式就是习近平主席提出的“人类命运共同体”，因为其中包含了人类这一整体概念。西方有一个非常类似的，或者说相同的哲学思想，是15世纪的思想家库萨的尼古拉提出的。他的矛盾并存理论认为，因为人类是唯一能够进行创造性思维的物种，因此我们可以共同畅想能够弥合所有分歧的崇高理想。所以我认为，我们应当探讨为何这种矛盾并存的观点和习近平主席的“人类命运共同体”理念是一致的。一旦我们达成共识，合作就会非常顺利。

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